[Luke Y]

Just wondering, how did the Syrian 9th Armoured division stage to Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield?
I'm assuming they were transported by sea via Lattakia, but who's ships carried them?

Also how much co-operation, integration and intelligence sharing between CENTCOM and other coalition partners and Syria?
How much dirt did we dig on their capabilities? And what of them to ours?

Same questions could also apply to a lesser degree about the Egyptians.

[rmgill]

Luke Y, on Thu 25 Feb 2010 0635, said:

Just wondering, how did the Syrian 9th Armoured division stage to Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield?
I'm assuming they were transported by sea via Lattakia, but who's ships carried them?

Also how much co-operation, integration and intelligence sharing between CENTCOM and other coalition partners and Syria?
How much dirt did we dig on their capabilities? And what of them to ours?

Same questions could also apply to a lesser degree about the Egyptians.

The could have been trucked through Jordan.

[JamesG123]

I seem to recall that they were...

[DKTanker]

JamesG123, on Thu 25 Feb 2010 0830, said:

I seem to recall that they were...

Talking to our S-2 in 1991, the trucking companies used to move armored vehicles in that part of the world pretty much are a mercenary lot. It turns out the trucks that moved our tanks from the Saudi ports out to the desert in January '91 took part in moving Iraqi tanks for their invasion of Kuwait the previous summer. They're also the same group, younger then, that moved Iraqi vehicles to the Golan in 1973 and apparently they also worked both sides of the border between Iraq and Iran during the 1980s.

[JamesG123]

You go where/with who the money is...

[Luke Y]

rmgill, on Fri 26 Feb 2010 0055, said:

The could have been trucked through Jordan.

You sure about that?

King Hussein backed Saddam in 1990-91 due to the dependency on Iraqi oil at the time.
Seems a bit odd he would just let a whole armoured division motor on through his country to invade a (technical) ally, especially given the history of extreme animosity between the Jordanians and Syrians.
Even when they were on the same side Jordan wouldn't allow Syrian troops into Jordan.

[Ken Estes]

I recall news coverage showing them offloading from ships. They alone of the 'allies' did not advance into Kuwait, ostensibly to avoid hitting their T-62s by mistake. One wonders about some other aspects. The Egyptian 4th Arm and 3d Mech Inf Div, OTOH, performed very well and advanced in the Arab joint force cmd - north on the left of the USMC forces, stopping at the 'highway of death' NW of Kuwait City, wedged in between VII Corps and I MEF.

[Rubberneck]

The Syrians were promised a number of political concessions in order to get them into the Coalition, including talks with Israel about the Golan Heights with the US acting as an intermediary. After a few weeks in the Arabian sand, the Syrians started to get cold feet, and never left Saudi soil, stating that their mission was in fact to defend Saudi Arabia, not to liberate Kuwait.

Schwarzkopf only visited the commanding general of the Syrian Forces once, as they were considered windown dressing from the start.

The Egyptians made out like bandits, as Mubarak was able to all Egyptian foreign debt forgiven and charged military ships twice the toll (about 200K USD) when they passed through the Suez Canal. They Egyptian forces actually fought, like Ken stated, but were significantly slowed by a trench line that had been filled with oil by the Iraqi Army and then lit on fire.

[Luke Y]

Rubberneck, on Fri 26 Feb 2010 1144, said:

The Syrians were promised a number of political concessions in order to get them into the Coalition, including talks with Israel about the Golan Heights with the US acting as an intermediary. After a few weeks in the Arabian sand, the Syrians started to get cold feet, and never left Saudi soil, stating that their mission was in fact to defend Saudi Arabia, not to liberate Kuwait.

The Syrians weren't exactly enthusiastic allies, as can be withnessed with the SAR extraction of the first F15E pilot that went down, who would've been extracted if it weren't for their stalling, instead he was captured.

[jakec]

I think they might have landed by ship at the Red Sea port of Yanbu IIRC.

[Special-K]

Rubberneck, on Thu 25 Feb 2010 2014, said:

SNIP


They Egyptian forces actually fought, like Ken stated, but were significantly slowed by a trench line that had been filled with oil by the Iraqi Army and then lit on fire.

Out of curiosity, how does one breach such an obstacle? Just wait till it burns out?




-K

[JamesG123]

Bulldoze up a berm and then push it into the trench, displacing the oil and putting it out in the lane.

[A2Keltainen]

Special-K, on Fri 26 Feb 2010 1204, said:

Out of curiosity, how does one breach such an obstacle? Just wait till it burns out?

Georgy Zhukov says: Just send in some troop waves to lay down on in it, and cover the flames with their bodies.

[Ken Estes]

JamesG123, on Fri 26 Feb 2010 0957, said:

Bulldoze up a berm and then push it into the trench, displacing the oil and putting it out in the lane.

What's the rate of advance of a dozer? That would qualify as Rubberneck's "significantly slowed"!

[Rubberneck]

The Eqyptians were slowed down enough by the tranch line that Franks and Schwartzkopf decided to committ the 1st Cavalry Division, which was being held as the Theater Reserve.

[Rubberneck]

Actually, they were at the beginning.

The 9th Armored Division was stationed on the Golan, and pulled off and sent to Saudi as it was seen as a sign of good faith towards the Israelis. The Syrians wanted to have a sit down with them.

After a few weeks, they became more reactionary, and did not allow for mass overflights, and forced the Coalition to submit by exception requests.

There are a lot of unknowns with the Syrian deployment - what was promised to them by the US, the Saudis, and why they became very reluctant to support the Coalition.

There still is a TON of material that is not declassified about Desert Storm. I suspect we know about 70% of what actually occured in the war at the strategic level.

Luke Y, on Fri 26 Feb 2010 0501, said:

The Syrians weren't exactly enthusiastic allies, as can be withnessed with the SAR extraction of the first F15E pilot that went down, who would've been extracted if it weren't for their stalling, instead he was captured.

[Ken Estes]

Quote

The Eqyptians were slowed down enough by the tranch line that Franks and Schwartzkopf decided to committ the 1st Cavalry Division, which was being held as the Theater Reserve.

Rubberneck, on Sun 28 Feb 2010 0409, said:

Actually, they were at the beginning.

The 9th Armored Division was stationed on the Golan, and pulled off and sent to Saudi as it was seen as a sign of good faith towards the Israelis. The Syrians wanted to have a sit down with them.

After a few weeks, they became more reactionary, and did not allow for mass overflights, and forced the Coalition to submit by exception requests.

There are a lot of unknowns with the Syrian deployment - what was promised to them by the US, the Saudis, and why they became very reluctant to support the Coalition.

There still is a TON of material that is not declassified about Desert Storm. I suspect we know about 70% of what actually occured in the war at the strategic level.

1 Cav Div was committed where, Andy? Most maps show its feint on D/D+1, not crossing the SA frontier. Funny about the declass problems. I distinctly recall SecDef promulgating a blanket declass of all but SI category, yet it is not known today. I guess Mr. Cheney was even then relocating to an unknown location?

My personal opinion at the time was that 1CavDiv was in reserve to watch our backs....

[Rubberneck]

I'll have to pull the reference material we had in class tonight Ken. I distinctly remember there were discussion between Schwarzkopf and Franks about the comittment of the 1st Cavarly because the Egyptians were being held up by the obstacle line, and Schwartzkopf wanted to mass as much combat power against the Iraqis as quickly as possible.

Most maps I've seen don't do justice to what actually happened. The sweeping spaghetti lines are so broad and vague...

[Jim Martin]

Luke Y, on Fri 26 Feb 2010 0501, said:

The Syrians weren't exactly enthusiastic allies, as can be withnessed with the SAR extraction of the first F15E pilot that went down, who would've been extracted if it weren't for their stalling, instead he was captured.

A close friend of mine told me a story which would seem to contradict that; he was a commander of a LAV-M with 2nd MarDiv, and on either the 1st or 2nd night of the offensive (been years since he told me the story), his unit halted; to his left was a Syrian unit, and he heard gunfire coming from their position. He observed their activities with NVG's and watched as Syrian officers went down a line of Iraqi PW's who were kneeling, and executed selected PW's with a pistol to the head. He states that he reported this activity to higher, and requested to at least fire mortar flares over the Syrian position to let them know they were being watched, and was told to do nothing. He spent the rest of the night watching, as he said he felt a responsibility to be a witness to the crime.

[A2Keltainen]

Jim Martin, on Sat 6 Mar 2010 1947, said:

He observed their activities with NVG's and watched as undercover Israeli officers disguised as Syrian officers went down a line of Iraqi PW's who were kneeling, and executed selected PW's with a pistol to the head.

Fixed that for you. Next time, try to remember that it's the Jews who are The Evil Ones, while all arabs are kind, friendly, and peace loving. <_<