[Rocky Davis]

I'm a self-admitted USAF dumbass.

What kind of timeline/career trek would one have had to undergo from the moment of High School graduation to becoming a combat pilot based in SE Asia during the Vietnam conflict?

[DesertFox]

Got some more modern information if it will get you in the right ballpark
According to a Navy Captain I know (former Captain of the USS Milwaukee) who used to be an aviator,

Quote

1. Actual flight training for a carrier aviator is approximately 2 years ± a month.
2. After that they are assigned to a F/A 18 training squadron - this takes 8 months.
3. After they complete that they are considered minimum combat ready but usually spend several months once in the final squadron before they are really let loose.

Interesting statistic - flight training just to get wings (the two years) costs 1.4 million dollars. 18 - 20 percent wash out in the first two years. Once they get into F/A 18 training (before final squadron assignment) approximately 8 - 9 percent more are washed out -- these guys already have their wings.

[Rocky Davis]

DesertFox, on Wed 10 Jun 2009 1824, said:

Got some more modern information if it will get you in the right ballpark
According to a Navy Captain I know (former Captain of the USS Milwaukee) who used to be an aviator,

Post what you have - it IS appreciated!

[DesertFox]

Rocky Davis, on Wed 10 Jun 2009 2033, said:

Post what you have - it IS appreciated!

Well, what I posted in quotes is what he told me. He is having internet problems but will send more later on.

[Luke Y]

DesertFox, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 0854, said:

Interesting statistic - flight training just to get wings (the two years) costs 1.4 million dollars. 18 - 20 percent wash out in the first two years. Once they get into F/A 18 training (before final squadron assignment) approximately 8 - 9 percent more are washed out -- these guys already have their wings.

Re the 8-9% fast-jet wash-outs, what are the reasons? And where do they go? Do they go back into the pool for postings to other F/W and helo sqdns?

[BansheeOne]

According to Stephen Coonts' "Flight of the Intruder", for Vietnam-era A-6 pilots it was 18 months of flight training, one month of IFR training and eight months with a reserve (A-6 training?) squadron before transfer to an active squadron, which kinda jives with DesertFox's description.

[Rocky Davis]

BansheeOne, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 0314, said:

According to Stephen Coonts' "Flight of the Intruder", for Vietnam-era A-6 pilots it was 18 months of flight training, one month of IFR training and eight months with a reserve (A-6 training?) squadron before transfer to an active squadron, which kinda jives with DesertFox's description.

Considering that all USAF pilots must be officers, we have this timeline from the moment of HIgh School graduation (at age 18):

Attend and graduate 4-year college while enrolled in USAF ROTC.
Graduation/made 2LT USAF (current age age 22 years)
USAF Officer's Basic Course (three months . . . does this exist?)
Flight School and IFR Training (19 months)
Internship with USAF Reserve unit (8 months)
Assigned as pilot in active squadron (current age 24.5 years)

OR

Enlist in USAF, spend one year as EM (current age 19 years)
Sign up for, attend and graduate USAF OCS (one year, current age 20 years)
USAF Officer's Basic Course (three months . . . does this exist?)
Flight School and IFR Training (19 months)
Internship with USAF Reserve unit (8 months)
Assigned as pilot in active squadron (current age 22.5 years)

So, a pilot just getting assigned to an active squadron is anywhere from 22.5 to 24.5 years of age, correct?

[RETAC21]

Rocky Davis, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 0916, said:

Considering that all USAF pilots must be officers, we have this timeline from the moment of HIgh School graduation (at age 18):

Attend and graduate 4-year college while enrolled in USAF ROTC.
Graduation/made 2LT USAF (current age age 22 years)
USAF Officer's Basic Course (three months . . . does this exist?)
Flight School and IFR Training (19 months)
Internship with USAF Reserve unit (8 months)
Assigned as pilot in active squadron (current age 24.5 years)

OR

Enlist in USAF, spend one year as EM (current age 19 years)
Sign up for, attend and graduate USAF OCS (one year, current age 20 years)
USAF Officer's Basic Course (three months . . . does this exist?)
Flight School and IFR Training (19 months)
Internship with USAF Reserve unit (8 months)
Assigned as pilot in active squadron (current age 22.5 years)

So, a pilot just getting assigned to an active squadron is anywhere from 22.5 to 24.5 years of age, correct?

Only you need to take into account that during Vietnam they were churning out pilots and taking shortcuts to meet the combat pilot needs of the units deployed there.

[Rocky Davis]

Let’s say a person was born on 1 JAN 1950 and is 59 years old right now.

Here is his shortest timetable to being a USAF pilot with three 7 month long combat tours in SE Asia:

1 JUN 68: Graduated High School
2 JUN 68: Enlisted USAF
2 JUN 68 – 1 JUN 69: One year as USAF EM, signed on for OCS
2 JUN 69 – 1 JAN 70: Six months OCS
2 JAN 70 – 1 JUL 71: 19 Months Flight School and IFR Training

Let’s say that pilot internship was skipped in order to get this guy to Vietnam ASAP:

2 JUL 71 – 1 FEB 72: 7-month combat deployment to SE Asia in direct support of ground ops (AC-130)
2 FEB 72 – 1 FEB 73: 1 year stateside assignment
JAN 1973: Paris Peace Accords signed. Disengagement by all US Forces in direct combat roles in Vietnam
2 FEB 73 – 1 SEP 73: 7-month combat deployment to SE Asia in direct support of ground ops (AC-130)
2 SEP 73 – 1 SEP 74: 1 year stateside assignment
2 SEP 74 – 1 APR 75: 7-month combat deployment to SE Asia in direct support of ground ops (AC-130)
2 APR 75 – Whenever: Other assignments . . .

This is the tightest timeline I can arrive at for this imaginary guy and there is no way he could have completed three 7-month long combat tours in Vietnam in USAF units involved in direct ground support ops, as they stopped on 1 FEB 73.

Does this all sound correct?

[DougRichards]

Also, just remember that some VN war USAF pilots had been USAAF pilots in WW2, at least one carrying his kill markings for his Luftwaffe kills on his F-105. Which tends to put training to combat times into perspective.

[ABNredleg]

Luke_Yaxley, on Wed 10 Jun 2009 2134, said:

Re the 8-9% fast-jet wash-outs, what are the reasons? And where do they go? Do they go back into the pool for postings to other F/W and helo sqdns?

When I was going through Field Artillery Officer Basic Course there was a Marine LT that had been in the fighter track and had earned his wings, but was taken off flight status for medical reasons (stress induced migraines) during carrier quals. Since he couldn't pass his flight physical, he served the remainder of his service obligation in the field artillery.

Apparently a lot of pilot washouts retrain as navigators and weapon systems officers.

Gary

[ShotMagnet]

At a stab, and only because I served in the USAF; the career-track for one wishing to become a fighter-jock depends on two conditions.

One of them (the important one) is what slots are available for fighter pilots. The other one speaks to personal preferences, though in the main the fighter-jocks tend to make their preferences known right-quick. Most AF pilots are obviously not FJs, probably most of them don't want to be, or don't measure up to AF metrics for such, or some combination thereby.

Again at a stab, if you want to be an FJ you have to demonstrate the relevant skills, you have to have the want, and you have to have not a little bit of luck. Fighter-drivers are comparatively rare now, and I don't think that's changed dramatically over the years.

Also, fighter slots are for a certain type of pilot; one that is probably fairly exclusive with regard to other skills as well.


Shot

[Steven P Allen]

RE: USAF What about the AF Academy?

[baboon6]

Steven P Allen, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 1022, said:

RE: USAF What about the AF Academy?

During the 1960s cadets at the Academy received basic flight training, other than that I would think their path to becoming a pilot would be very similar. Remember as with the service academies the AF Academy was only one of several sources of commissioned officers.

[ScottBrim]

ShotMagnet, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 1109, said:

Also, fighter slots are for a certain type of pilot; one that is probably fairly exclusive with regard to other skills as well.
Shot

My oldest son, who is in Air Force ROTC, wants to be an A-10 pilot. He loves flying, he is an out-of-the-box thinker, and he fully understands why flying the A-10 is different from flying anything else in the USAF. He was nominated to the USAF Academy but not appointed, unfortunately -- probably because, in my personal opinion, he is way too much of a warrior and not nearly enough of a geek technologist.

Anyway, it has been my observation of the men I know who are ex fighter pilots that in addition to the expected skill sets, personality traits, and physical qualifications, they also have the ability to step outside of themselves and examine their own strengths and weaknesess in a detached way, and to know who they are as people. Whatever obstacles within their own sphere of influence that might get in the way of doing what it is they want to do, they deal with quickly and effectively.

[baboon6]

RETAC21, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 0450, said:

Only you need to take into account that during Vietnam they were churning out pilots and taking shortcuts to meet the combat pilot needs of the units deployed there.

It would still take at least 18 months of training for a new pilot before arriving at an operational unit and was probably more often than not at least 2 years. Were not all new officer-pilots (and navigators/WSOs) commissioned at this time required to be college graduates? If so there is no way someone born in 1950 could have flown as a USAF pilot in Vietnam. He could have flown as a US Army pilot though...

True there was a shortage of fighter/fighter-bomber pilots and SAC, Air Training Command, and all kinds of ground/staff organisations were combed for available men, some of whom hadn't flown fighters at all before, who were fairly hastily retrained and soon found themselves flying F-100s/F-105s/F-4s.

Here are some bios of Vietnam War pilots, undergraduate pilot training took a year, then there was combat crew training, survival school etc. before arriving at a fighter squadron.

http://books.google.......um=10#PPA110,M1

This post has been edited by baboon6: 11 June 2009 - 1109 AM

[baboon6]

Rocky Davis, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 0554, said:

Let’s say a person was born on 1 JAN 1950 and is 59 years old right now.

Here is his shortest timetable to being a USAF pilot with three 7 month long combat tours in SE Asia:

1 JUN 68: Graduated High School
2 JUN 68: Enlisted USAF
2 JUN 68 – 1 JUN 69: One year as USAF EM, signed on for OCS
2 JUN 69 – 1 JAN 70: Six months OCS
2 JAN 70 – 1 JUL 71: 19 Months Flight School and IFR Training

In the 60s Officer Training School at Lackland AFB, Texas, was a three-month course for college graduates. Those destined to be pilots would then go on to Undergraduate Pilot Training.

[seahawk]

Rocky Davis, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 1254, said:

Let’s say a person was born on 1 JAN 1950 and is 59 years old right now.

Here is his shortest timetable to being a USAF pilot with three 7 month long combat tours in SE Asia:

1 JUN 68: Graduated High School
2 JUN 68: Enlisted USAF
2 JUN 68 – 1 JUN 69: One year as USAF EM, signed on for OCS
2 JUN 69 – 1 JAN 70: Six months OCS
2 JAN 70 – 1 JUL 71: 19 Months Flight School and IFR Training

Let’s say that pilot internship was skipped in order to get this guy to Vietnam ASAP:

2 JUL 71 – 1 FEB 72: 7-month combat deployment to SE Asia in direct support of ground ops (AC-130)
2 FEB 72 – 1 FEB 73: 1 year stateside assignment
JAN 1973: Paris Peace Accords signed. Disengagement by all US Forces in direct combat roles in Vietnam
2 FEB 73 – 1 SEP 73: 7-month combat deployment to SE Asia in direct support of ground ops (AC-130)
2 SEP 73 – 1 SEP 74: 1 year stateside assignment
2 SEP 74 – 1 APR 75: 7-month combat deployment to SE Asia in direct support of ground ops (AC-130)
2 APR 75 – Whenever: Other assignments . . .

This is the tightest timeline I can arrive at for this imaginary guy and there is no way he could have completed three 7-month long combat tours in Vietnam in USAF units involved in direct ground support ops, as they stopped on 1 FEB 73.

Does this all sound correct?

Due to the fact that is supposed to be an AC-130 the last tour is possible. However the good thing for your research is that the AC-130 community was a small group. gunships.org should help. Must have been with the 16 SOS back then.

[Rocky Davis]

seahawk, on Thu 11 Jun 2009 1136, said:

Due to the fact that is supposed to be an AC-130 the last tour is possible. However the good thing for your research is that the AC-130 community was a small group. gunships.org should help. Must have been with the 16 SOS back then.

The tour is possible, as it is Ubon Royal Thai AF Base. But, the ground support missions would have violated the Peace Accords. From what I know, direct air intervention by US pilots was a no-no and the South Vietnamese ran their entire show from spring 1973 to the fall of Siagon in spring 1975.

[baboon6]

Bios of some USAF special operations pilots, aircrew and ground-crew during the Vietnam War, gives some details of the places and lengths of training courses. The other link I posted above was mainly of fighter pilots:

http://books.google.......num=10#PPA40,M1

Pilot training for non-college graduates in the USAF effectively ended with the end of the Aviation Cadet programme for pilots in 1961 (it continued for navigators until 1965). Aviation cadets, many of whom were college graduates and the majority of whom had some college, entered flight training almost immediately after joining the Air Force, with just 4 weeks of basic training before. Some were former enlisted men in the Air Force who wanted to fly and had passed the tests and a few had prior service in one of the other services. They were commissioned after completing basic flying training and received their wings after advanced flying training.

More on Aviation Cadets here though this mainly pertains to the Korean War era (of course many Vietnam pilots had gone through the programme):

http://books.google....I...lt&resnum=8

The primary focus of the museum is to educate people about the cadet training program and participants. Originally called flying cadets, the program began in 1917 as a means to build up the nation’s air arm. From 1917 until the mid-fifties, the flying/aviation cadet corps trained almost all rated officers who wore wings. Severe said not just the United States, but every free nation had young men trained through the aviation cadet program until it ended in 1961. In all, the cadet program trained 325,000 men. The last cadet pilot graduated in Class 62-B on Oct. 11, 1961. The last aviation cadet retired from active duty in the Air Force on March 5, 1998.

http://www.arkansass...ay.aspx?id=1018