[ShotMagnet]

How reliable was the radar ranging and tracking equipment for SA-2s?

I've just bought one on eBay...

OK, just kidding.

I'm asking because I recall reading that Mig pilots intercepting B-52s would sometimes fly at the same altitude as the BUFFs and report that altitude to the ground.

Why wouldn't/couldn't the radar for SA-2s do the same thing?


Shot

[Jussi Saari]

ShotMagnet, on Sat 23 May 2009 1524, said:

I'm asking because I recall reading that Mig pilots intercepting B-52s would sometimes fly at the same altitude as the BUFFs and report that altitude to the ground.

Why wouldn't/couldn't the radar for SA-2s do the same thing?

If they actually did that, then that wouldn't be during the SAM engagement itself, for guiding the missiles the SAM sites' own radars would of course track the target. Minimizing the time the radars have to be transmitting was important in order to avoid unwanted attention from Wild Weasels however and many early warning radars could only provide 2-d targeting data, so it would make sense the SAM crew would want to know precisely where to point it's Fan Song when it was starting the engagement.

But that's if that was actually being done, and I consider it a big if. As far as I know that was only an assumption made by USAF on the basis of some B-52 crew claiming to have seen MiGs to come close but not attacking. But if the MiG could get actually that close (and they had great deal of difficulty just finding the B-52s, to say nothing of the F-4s on MiGCAP), it would probably have a great deal better chances of destroying the B-52 by attacking it immediately with it's K-13s and gun (if present), than providing information for a SAM site, hoping to reduce the Fan Song emission time by a small fraction by providing altitude data...

More likely the MiGs were either F-4s mis-ID'd by nervous B-52 crew members, or if actually MiGs, then more likely completely unaware of potential prey nearby, or looking at the wrong part of the sky for the target the GCI says is supposed to be right there...

This post has been edited by Jussi Saari: 23 May 2009 - 1107 AM

[rmgill]

I sent a missive off to a friend who know's a little something about Soviet Radar systems. We'll see if he's allowed to answer this particular question or not. :)

[Tomas Hoting]

ShotMagnet, on Sat 23 May 2009 1724, said:

I'm asking because I recall reading that Mig pilots intercepting B-52s would sometimes fly at the same altitude as the BUFFs and report that altitude to the ground.

Why wouldn't/couldn't the radar for SA-2s do the same thing?
Shot

SA-2s utilized a separate PRV-11 Side Net height-finding radar to determine elevation and another radar like the P-15 Flat Face A to determine azimuth.

Maybe the radars on the MiG-21s couldn't give their pilots any information on the altitude of their targets?

[JOE BRENNAN]

I agree with Jussi, the basic assumption that the MiG-21's were flying formation to report altitudes is questionable. Official Vietnamese accounts of MiG-21 operations that have appeared in print in Toperczer's books like "Air War over North Vietnam" and "MiG-21 Units" describe their tactics as directed at shooting down B-52's, not other purposes. Likewise a declassified Soviet GRU summary of VPAF operations doesn't mention anything about formation flying to relay fire control info.

According to the Vietnamese the MiG-21's succeeded in downing 2 B-52's, one each Dec 27 and 28, 1972. In the first case, according to the USAF's SEA Monograph VI, Ash 2 (B-52D 56-605) was downed by a SAM from the site the US designated VN-549, one of the targets of the night's bombing because it had scored other B-52 kills already; whereas cell Ivory reported an unsuccessful attack by MiG's and Opal reported the 'formation flying' effect. On the 28th no B-52's were lost; the MiG was lost to B-52 debris per the VPAF, but might have been hit in midair by falling bombs, as no US claim was registered.

This is all subject to more research in primary sources, but I'd tend to discount the formation flying/relay idea based on what is known.

Joe

[ShotMagnet]

Hence the question.

As mentioned, why fly a fighter to provide altitude data on an attacking bomber when you can save everyone a lot of trouble by shooting the bomber down yourself?


Shot

[Luke Y]

ShotMagnet, on Sun 24 May 2009 0054, said:

I'm asking because I recall reading that Mig pilots intercepting B-52s would sometimes fly at the same altitude as the BUFFs and report that altitude to the ground.

Why wouldn't/couldn't the radar for SA-2s do the same thing?
Shot

The 'Thirteen Days of Christmas' book dismissed that theory along with the elite SA-3 battery as nothing but rumours with zero evidence behind it.

Ken might be able to elaborate on B52 ops.