[philguy]

Ok I don't know all the details involved around this, so it may be one of those if you knew everything you would understand still some fun. So here is the video, just for fun.

undefinedT-38 bags a F-22

[beans4]

I believe A-4's flown by instructors have at one time or other bagged all of the teen series fighters. No doubt this also occurred in a training scenario.

[Argus]

I understand A-10's have taken down F-15's, Mirage III's have humbled F-15/16's and all sorts of other mismatches over the years, the best plane in the world isn't mush use if the pilot is in the wrong place at the wrong time at the bottom of the energy curve.

Still a good bit of fun though :)

shane

[shep854]

First rule of air surpremacy; Take 'Em Out On The Ground! From StrategyPage:

F-22 Taken Out By A CF-18
April 21, 2009: For the second time in a month, a U.S. Air Force F-22 suffered a "Class A" accident (one causing over a million dollars of loss). This one was the result of an F-22 colliding with a Canadian CF-18 while taxiing at Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida.

[Tuccy]

How many attempts were there? IOW IRL how many T-38 pilots would have to be sacrificed to maybe get that one kill? ;)

[Luke Y]

The thing most people don't understand about excercises is that they're not simply Red plane Flies at blue plane, then they duel it out.
The scenario was quite probably scripted to have the T-38's bounce the F-22's in a position of weakness in order to train in all aspect, close in, non AWE&C environments.

This is why the 'Wow [insert nation - insert Aircraft] 'shot-down' [insert-uber-aircraft here] in exercises, waxing the floor with them' are pointless.

[Bearded-Dragon]

Trainer aircraft also invariably are much lighter and much more manoeuvrable than combat aircraft which carry such pesky things as loads of fuel, missiles and guns and ammunition which trainers don't.

[Assessor]

An old, but functional approach, not limited to air combat:

1) Figure out what makes you "better" than the other guy;

2) Fight on these terms.

When you edit this to "Figure out what makes the other (vastly less well equipped) guy better than YOU and fight on THOSE terms", you get this kind of thing happening. I suppose the message to F22 pilots is "You see what happens? Now don't do it again!"

[m4a1]

It just can happen and doesn't at all dimisnish the Raptor. In Poland there was supposed to be a case when a Su-22 got a MiG-29, for instance.

[TomasCTT]

Luke_Yaxley, on Wed 22 Apr 2009 2137, said:

The thing most people don't understand about excercises is that they're not simply Red plane Flies at blue plane, then they duel it out.
The scenario was quite probably scripted to have the T-38's bounce the F-22's in a position of weakness in order to train in all aspect, close in, non AWE&C environments.

This is why the 'Wow [insert nation - insert Aircraft] 'shot-down' [insert-uber-aircraft here] in exercises, waxing the floor with them' are pointless.

Or, it's all a ploy to pretty-fy the sales brochures. Imagine: Brochure says "The latest versions of the F-5 trainer version managed to down an F-22 in an exercise." Countries will buy it for grabs as their primary fighter. And when war comes.... :D

[Jeffro]

What weapon did the T38 use?

Test Missiles?

And dont forget its a lightened F-5 Dogfighter, 2,000lb lighter empty weight so it should go like the clappers.

[Tuccy]

m4a1, on Wed 22 Apr 2009 1908, said:

It just can happen and doesn't at all dimisnish the Raptor. In Poland there was supposed to be a case when a Su-22 got a MiG-29, for instance.

And our light tactical L-159's got repeatedly Norwegian F-16s in an exercise. In proper conditions...

[Kenneth P. Katz]

I could shoot down an F-22 with a Cessna 172 in an appropriately contrived scenario. Really.

The F-22 is flying a domestic air defense mission when I enter an ADIZ without authorization. He comes in low and slow to check me out and as he passes by me I take a shot at him with a MANPADS which is fired from a launcher on my wing. A MANPADS probably won't kill an F-22 but it could.

All of which proves that the F-22 is not magical. As Luke says, Red Flag is a training situation and it would not be particularly useful training for the F-22 to be used only in scenarios for which it is optimized. In a real war, good commanders would attempt to use the F-22 in the optimal way, and yes, some F-22 would probably be shot down because nothing is optimal.

[Kenneth P. Katz]

A T-38 is a nice little airplane but its not remotely in the same class as an F-22 at any time.

Bearded-Dragon, on Wed 22 Apr 2009 1355, said:

Trainer aircraft also invariably are much lighter and much more manoeuvrable than combat aircraft which carry such pesky things as loads of fuel, missiles and guns and ammunition which trainers don't.

[TomasCTT]

Kenneth P. Katz, on Fri 24 Apr 2009 1021, said:

I could shoot down an F-22 with a Cessna 172 in an appropriately contrived scenario. Really.

The F-22 is flying a domestic air defense mission when I enter an ADIZ without authorization. He comes in low and slow to check me out and as he passes by me I take a shot at him with a MANPADS which is fired from a launcher on my wing. A MANPADS probably won't kill an F-22 but it could.

All of which proves that the F-22 is not magical. As Luke says, Red Flag is a training situation and it would not be particularly useful training for the F-22 to be used only in scenarios for which it is optimized. In a real war, good commanders would attempt to use the F-22 in the optimal way, and yes, some F-22 would probably be shot down because nothing is optimal.

After the first and second sentences, I was expecting that either you or EchoFiveMike bring out a .50-cal rifle and shoot the Raptor pilot's head....