[DesertFox]

I was watching "Dogfights" about the Tuskegee Airmen and one of the pilots had a fight with a captured P-51 although he had to break off from the fight before he ran out of fuel.

Anybody read anything on this? Also, any other captured Allied aircraft in Axis service?

[Garry Redmon]

There were B-17, B-24, B-26, B-25, P-38, P-47, P-51, P-39 and an F4U Corsair courtesy of the Japanese.

[Hittite Under The Bridge]

Google for a Squadron/Signal Publication "Strangers in a Strange Land." I believe the author was Heinz-Henri Staupfer.

[Doug Kibbey]

DesertFox, on Fri 17 Apr 2009 2342, said:

Also, any other captured Allied aircraft in Axis service?

Lots....

http://rareaircraf1....%20Aircraft.htm

[Luke Y]

There was KG200 which flew all sorts of captured allied aircraft, but it seems odd to be flying fighters as fighters.

Was he shadowing a formation or something?

[MiloMorai]

AXIS USE OF CAPTURED U.S. AIRCRAFT

http://www.lonesentr...s-aircraft.html

[Stuart Galbraith]

The use of allied aircraft to shadow formations was widely reported at the time, but its been pretty much debunked now. As Adolf Galland said, if they saw an allied aircraft, they would have shot it up, regardless of the markings it had. :)

It does look as though KG200 did use allied aircraft (particularly americans ones) for spy drops though.

[Luke Y]

Stuart Galbraith, on Sun 19 Apr 2009 0513, said:

The use of allied aircraft to shadow formations was widely reported at the time, but its been pretty much debunked now. As Adolf Galland said, if they saw an allied aircraft, they would have shot it up, regardless of the markings it had. :)

It does look as though KG200 did use allied aircraft (particularly americans ones) for spy drops though.

Always struck me as a pretty suicidal idea.

[DougRichards]

Aircraft recognition in the heat of combat was never easy. American pilots, when they first came across the Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien 'Tony' reported that they had encountered Bf-109s with Japanese markings.

The Ta-152, from a distance, had the potential to look like a P-51, especially if an opposing fighter pilot didn't know what they were facing, It is also recorded that Kurt Tank himself was bounced by a flight of P-51D whilst on a test flight and outpaced them easily. Only a limited number of Ta-152s saw service, scoring some kills, but also being mistaken for Bf-109s by British pilots.

If an American pilot came into contact with an aircraft that vaguely looked like a P-51, and that had performance rivalling or better than a P-51, when they didn't expect a German aircraft to have this performance, there is a good chance that they would describe it as a captured P-51, after all, what else could it be?

[Stuart Galbraith]

DougRichards, on Mon 20 Apr 2009 1404, said:

Aircraft recognition in the heat of combat was never easy. American pilots, when they first came across the Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien 'Tony' reported that they had encountered Bf-109s with Japanese markings.

The Ta-152, from a distance, had the potential to look like a P-51, especially if an opposing fighter pilot didn't know what they were facing, It is also recorded that Kurt Tank himself was bounced by a flight of P-51D whilst on a test flight and outpaced them easily. Only a limited number of Ta-152s saw service, scoring some kills, but also being mistaken for Bf-109s by British pilots.

If an American pilot came into contact with an aircraft that vaguely looked like a P-51, and that had performance rivalling or better than a P-51, when they didn't expect a German aircraft to have this performance, there is a good chance that they would describe it as a captured P-51, after all, what else could it be?

I can imagine that from some angles a Fw190 D9 (at a stretch even a Ta152) might look just like a P51D.

There were also some disturbing stories about air gunners reporting about 'shot at an aircraft that had chequer noses just like ours which attacked us'. The Germans claimed postwar they didn't often paint Chequer noses on their aircraft (Im leery of saying never), so the clear implication is that they shot at allied aircraft in the heat of combat. And they say friendly fire is a new concept....

Dont I recall reading something about a Tony that was captured intact on one of the pacific islands that was took back home and flight tested whilst the war was till ongoing? Im sure it was a great surprise to learn it wasnt German designed. :)

[MiloMorai]

JG 1 had checkered noses (white/black) for awhile on there Fw190-As. Iirc was in 1943.

Doug, even the Ta152H was attacked by German fighters.

This post has been edited by MiloMorai: 20 April 2009 - 1307 PM

[Stuart Galbraith]

MiloMorai, on Mon 20 Apr 2009 1905, said:

JG 1 had checkered noses (white/black) for awhile on there Fw190-As. Iirc was in 1943.

Doug, even the Ta152H was attacked by German fighters.

Mind you, these claims were still being made in 1944 and 1945, when the Luftwaffe surely had more important things to do than show off. :)

But I take the point, one can never say never. Or rarely anyway.

[binder001]

There are photos of P51Ds in German markings having been captured and flown as Test and Eval aircraft. I hadn't heard of any in combat operations (makes a great story likne though!) I understand another place to find a number of P51s in orignal markings was Switzerland. As far as the bomber gunners engaging friendlies - not unusual. I understand that pilots had to be warned to be careful in approaching the bombers as the gunners (19-20-somethings and VERY scared) were ready to shoot at anything with a single-engine.

Gary

[Steven P Allen]

Would the LW have had access to sufficient ammunition stocks to make flying any combat missions in captured aircraft possible? They would have needed quite a bit of belted .50, for example, which I would expect was not common in their neighborhood.

[MiloMorai]

Stuart Galbraith, on Mon 20 Apr 2009 1920, said:

Mind you, these claims were still being made in 1944 and 1945, when the Luftwaffe surely had more important things to do than show off. :)

But I take the point, one can never say never. Or rarely anyway.

The P-47 had ID stripes added to wing, tail and stab because it could be confused withe 190. Same for the P-51 for confusing with a 109.

[shep854]

The risk of mistaken ID was less for Spitfires and P-47s because of their "orange slice" wing planforms. Robert S. Johnson told of the practice of "flipping up on a wing" when approaching bombers to help ID. The razorback P-51s were definitely at risk for mistaken ID, hence the broad stripes.

[Garry Redmon]

Steven P Allen, on Mon 20 Apr 2009 2106, said:

Would the LW have had access to sufficient ammunition stocks to make flying any combat missions in captured aircraft possible? They would have needed quite a bit of belted .50, for example, which I would expect was not common in their neighborhood.

They probably had plenty of ammo from downed aircraft, as well as spare parts, lubricants, etc.

[DougRichards]

I wasn't talking about the long winged Ta-152H, but the shorter winged variants, which were fairly close to a P-51 in size.

[DougRichards]

Stuart Galbraith, on Mon 20 Apr 2009 1751, said:

Dont I recall reading something about a Tony that was captured intact on one of the pacific islands that was took back home and flight tested whilst the war was till ongoing? Im sure it was a great surprise to learn it wasnt German designed. :)

To be fair it was a German designed engine.

Some of the more interesting combats that never happenned could have been between the Seversky (Republic) P-35 and the Reggiane Re-2000 Falco 1. That would have been a nightmare in aircraft recognition terms as the Italian aircraft was 'based' on the US aircraft, and Sweden flew them both.

[Luke Y]

Stuart Galbraith, on Tue 21 Apr 2009 0321, said:

Dont I recall reading something about a Tony that was captured intact on one of the pacific islands that was took back home and flight tested whilst the war was till ongoing? Im sure it was a great surprise to learn it wasnt German designed. :)

I always saw the similarity between the C.202 and the Ki61 as pretty astonishing, with the Tony being almost a prettier 'smoothed out' variant, which I guess is where the name came from...

http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/japan/kawasaki_ki-61.gif
http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/italy/macchi_c-202.gif