[ScottBrim]

http://www.thesun.co...icle2240543.ece

BRITISH and French nuclear submarines which collided deep under the Atlantic could have sunk or released deadly radioactivity, it emerged last night.

The Royal Navy’s HMS Vanguard and the French Navy’s Le Triomphant are both nuclear powered and were carrying nuke missiles.

Between them they had around 250 sailors on board.

A senior Navy source said: “The potential consequences are unthinkable. It’s very unlikely there would have been a nuclear explosion.

“But a radioactive leak was a possibility. Worse, we could have lost the crew and warheads. That would have been a national disaster.”

The collision is believed to have taken place on February 3 or 4, in mid-Atlantic. Both subs were submerged and on separate missions.

As inquiries began, naval sources said it was a millions-to-one unlucky chance both subs were in the same patch of sea. Warships have sonar gear which locates submarines by sound waves.

But modern anti-sonar technology is so good it is possible neither boat “saw” the other.

A senior military source said: “The lines between London and Paris have been hot.”

The MoD insisted last night there had been no nuclear security breach. But this is the biggest embarrassment to the Navy since Iran captured 15 sailors in 2007. The naval source said: “Crashing a nuclear submarine is as serious as it gets.”

Vanguard is one of Britain’s four V-Class subs forming our Trident nuclear deterrent. Each is armed with 16 ballistic missiles.

She was last night towed into Faslane in Scotland, with dents and scrapes visible on her hull. Triomphant limped to Brest with extensive damage to her sonar dome.

Triomphant has a crew of 101. Vanguard weighs 16,000 tons, is 150 metres long and has a crew of 140.

The MoD said it did not comment on submarine operations.

[Mote]

Guess they weren't kidding about how silent they were.

[RETAC21]

Since we can all but guess, I imagine that both navies use the same geographical feature to fix their positions and both subs tried at the same time.

Or they were horsing around with each other, which would be a huge no,no.

[Yama]

RETAC21, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 0933, said:

Since we can all but guess, I imagine that both navies use the same geographical feature to fix their positions and both subs tried at the same time.

Or they were horsing around with each other, which would be a huge no,no.

Chances for random collision seem astronomically low...on the other hand, surely two boomers would not start playing tag...

[Mk 1]

Yama, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1006, said:

Chances for random collision seem astronomically low...on the other hand, surely two boomers would not start playing tag...

Not so astronomically low if, as mentioned, the two navies use the same underwater features for fixing their locations when transiting to and from patrols.

If they were both using the same trench, or the same current, it seems unlikely that any one time there would be a collision, but with a sample of a few hundreds of occasions when multiple subs sortie from various nations over the past decades, the odds don't look so long.

After all the sky is a big place, too, yet airplanes were colliding fairly often before eastbound vs. westbound altitudes were established.

-Mark 1

[sunday]

RETAC21, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1033, said:

Since we can all but guess, I imagine that both navies use the same geographical feature to fix their positions and both subs tried at the same time.

Or they were horsing around with each other, which would be a huge no,no.

Robert Surcouf reincarnated vs. Horatio Nelson reincarnated?

I thought modern navies screened out zombies...

[RETAC21]

Mk 1, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1122, said:

Not so astronomically low if, as mentioned, the two navies use the same underwater features for fixing their locations when transiting to and from patrols.

If they were both using the same trench, or the same current, it seems unlikely that any one time there would be a collision, but with a sample of a few hundreds of occasions when multiple subs sortie from various nations over the past decades, the odds don't look so long.

After all the sky is a big place, too, yet airplanes were colliding fairly often before eastbound vs. westbound altitudes were established.

-Mark 1

Maybe it's time to bet, after all how often happens that 2 satellites collide and 2 SSBNs collide?

1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance?

[TomasCTT]

Mating attempt?









:D

[shep854]

Mk 1, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1022, said:

After all the sky is a big place, too, yet airplanes were colliding fairly often before eastbound vs. westbound altitudes were established.

-Mark 1

The hazard of colliding over nav beacons is constantly stressed in aviation, since they tend to be "intersections" between airways. While the actual risk is low, it is much higher than when cruising.

If one subscribes to the "events occur in threes" theory, could the cruiser in HI be "one", with the sub bump "two"? Or since two ships were involved, can this cycle be considered completed?

[DB]

Damage appears to have occurred to the front of the French submarine.

Vanguard appears to have been towed back into port, suggesting damage to the rear.

Now, I always understood that submarines don't hear too well when things are directly behind them (notwithstanding towed arrays, which may improve matters).

Unless they were playing games, one might speculate that the French submarine didn't hear the British one until it actually hit it...

[TomasCTT]

shep854, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 2118, said:

If one subscribes to the "events occur in threes" theory, could the cruiser in HI be "one", with the sub bump "two"? Or since two ships were involved, can this cycle be considered completed?

Ah yes, "Ang Tatlong Maria" (The Three Marys). Perhaps. 1 from the USA, 1 from UK, and 1 from France.

[JamesG123]

This would make an excellent kernel of truth/non-fiction for a Clancyesque military novel...

shep854, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1718, said:

The hazard of colliding over nav beacons is constantly stressed in aviation, since they tend to be "intersections" between airways. While the actual risk is low, it is much higher than when cruising.

If one subscribes to the "events occur in threes" theory, could the cruiser in HI be "one", with the sub bump "two"? Or since two ships were involved, can this cycle be considered completed?

No. Besides this is "astronomically unlikely collisions" so you have the collisions between the Russian and Iridium satellites, and these two subs, so we are still due another. Perhaps we will get lucky and Paris Hilton will collide with her mother's hand and we won't hear from her ever again. ;)

[Exel]

TomasCTT, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1433, said:

Mating attempt?
:D

I guess you have to get creative when on a tight procurement budget. Too bad it failed.

[ScottBrim]

I remember seeing a 1970s car insurance advertisement with the theme that in the year 1896, there were only two automobiles in some particular Ohio county; and in June of that year, the two collided with each other at a rural intersection.

[Tuccy]

JamesG123, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1453, said:

No. Besides this is "astronomically unlikely collisions" so you have the collisions between the Russian and Iridium satellites, and these two subs, so we are still due another. Perhaps we will get lucky and Paris Hilton will collide with her mother's hand and we won't hear from her ever again. ;)

Trains collided today in CZK, dunno whether it counts :)

[Fritz]

ScottBrim, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1121, said:

I remember seeing a 1970s car insurance advertisement with the theme that in the year 1896, there were only two automobiles in some particular Ohio county; and in June of that year, the two collided with each other at a rural intersection.

Probably each of the drivers thought "hey, I'm the only motor vehicle around here, I don't need to be careful".

[Stuart Galbraith]

There is a story about the only 2 motor cars in a small city in America in 1900 somehow managing to collide. Even assuming it was a small town, its still pretty remarkable odds.

[shep854]

JamesG123, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 1353, said:

Perhaps we will get lucky and Paris Hilton will collide with her mother's hand and we won't hear from her ever again. ;)

You almost made me give my lunch to the keyboard! :P :lol:

2009 PoY candidate!

[EvanDP]

One of two things:

1) A publicity stunt to promote "Cloverfield 2".

2) A joint UK-French attempt to prevent C'thulhu from rising from R'lyeh.*

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh C'thulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn,"

*We haven't had a good Lovecraft reference in a while. :)

This post has been edited by EvanDP: 16 February 2009 - 2241 PM

[tanknut]

Yama, on Mon 16 Feb 2009 0606, said:

Chances for random collision seem astronomically low...on the other hand, surely two boomers would not start playing tag...

Yeah buuuuut lokk how huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge the ocean is and I read an article that at any one time there is only ONE British Boomer patrolling the Atlantic Ocean at a time. Presumably there are only 1 or maybe 2 French ones patrolling the Atlantic at any one time as well... Do the math on a freak accident then what conclusion do you come to?